Ceramic Insulation

[RWoods]

I am a container owner who has been lurking over the past couple of years. I finally have a question that you guys haven't already answered (to my knowledge). After looking at and listening to the links on the Rhodondo Beach house I did some research on spray on ceramic insulation. There seems to be a lot of ceramic insulation products available. Some of the claims seem too good to be true. Does anyone know any companies that produce a reputable product? Thanks for your help.

Rebecca

[JIM MILLER]

Supertherm is the product that was used on the Redondo home. I can't testify to its credibility, but the folks who put that project together are very credible. You can check out the product's website if you go to.
http://www.supertherm.net/home.htm

BTW if there are any website designers out there you should give those folks a call...their site is really messy!
_________________
Jim Miller
Thousand Oaks, CA

[lavardera]

I can testify to its effectiveness. It seemed like hocus pocus to me until David Cross gave me a very convincing demo involving a strip of steel coated with Supertherm, an acetylene torch, and my fingers.
_________________
Gregory La Vardera
architect www.lamidesign.com
modern stock plans www.lamidesign.com/plans
modern workplace www.workalicious.org

[RWoods]

Thank you! Since the product can be relatively expensive I did not want to end up with a product that did not work. The ceramic insulation seems to be the perfect container product. You can get the R-value you need while still maintaining the "container look." Thanks again for your knowledge.

Rebecca

[sailboatescape]

Used by itself? Maybe, maybe not. I have limited experience with ceramic paint and like Greg stated it absolutely works at stopping the heat transfer. Whether or not it will be a excellent "insulator" for a house, if used by itself, remains to be seen in some climatic conditions.

Because I intend to use it I spent some time discussing it's use with one of the distributors and with the chief technician (maybe engineer, not sure of his credentials) at Supertherm and both cautioned me. The distributor said flatly he recommended using it in combination with a layer of closed cell foam. The engineer/technician at Supertherm spent a lot of time explaining the properties and performance and stated that in a fairly mild climate of low humidity he though it would perform fine independently.

Standard insulation materials (which are rated in R values, foam, fiberglass etc.) transfer heat but greatly slow the migtation from one side of the wall to the other. Try to think in terms of your 2x6 insulated conventional wall being cold on the outside, warm on the inside and a graduated temperature from one side to the other. Now think of your less than 1/4" thick steel wall with 1/4" of Supertherm on the inside. It is winter and cold outside and the steel is cold. On the inside it is toasty warm (and humid--you shower, wash, breath, etc.) but the heat is being stopped (very effectively) from going through the Supertherm and right behind it is very cold steel (the surface of your interior wall will feel cold to the touch because the Supertherm is so effective it will not allow it to get warm--it is reflecting the heat back inside). You will probably get some condensation. It may be little enough to live with and improved ventilation or a fresh air exchange system may eliminate it. Just be aware of the possibility and try to plan for how to deal with it.

Also consider the color of the outside depending on your climate. Dark colors will absorb the heat and white will reflect it in the winter and the effect will be more pronouned on the thin steel wall than on a conventional wall.

I am building in a low humidity climate and have decided to go with Supertherm alone (assuming I can get Code officials to agree).

[lavardera]

Coating inside and outside, while it doubles your material costs, will offset this somewhat.
_________________
Gregory La Vardera
architect www.lamidesign.com
modern stock plans www.lamidesign.com/plans
modern workplace www.workalicious.org

[drphibes]

Our West Coast Distributor for this paint is:

ENERGY-TECH
3508 Railroad Ave.
Redding, CA.
info@energytechrdg.com
office#: 530-245-0700
cell#:530-510-6538
The manufacture and ship out of Denver. I am waiting to hear back from paint guy before I follow-up, hopefully this week. Will keep posted

[DW Pearce]

I just need to clarify a few points.

The first being BUYER BEWARE. Please refer to http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/thermalcoverpage.htm

The previous post is NOT a distributor for SUPERTHERM. Ask for a copy of the ASTM C236 Standard Test Method for Steady-State Thermal Performance of Building Assemblies by Means of a Guarded Hot Box
http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/supertherm/certificationpages/c236.htm

IN FACT the West Coast Distributor for SUPERTHERM is http://www.eaglecoatings.net and the genuine product is shipped out of Kansas.

Also in terms of condensation it doesn't get much worse than in a greenhouse operation. http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/supertherm/projectpictures/Condensation.htm

I trust that this is satisfactory to counter some of the less than honest claims being made and also answer some of the legitimate questions that have been raised.

Sincerely Yours,
D. W. ( Doug ) Pearce
President

[newcreature]

Ok, I am very intrigued by the whole ceramic insulation thing and have a few questions. I can see how a container insulated strictly with ceramic insulation would do great in Redondo Beach where the temperature swing is probably 50 degrees at most and most of the time the low temp at in rare circumstances might dip to 40 degrees, but I don't see how that would work in more extreme climates. Consider Minnesota. If you have an average temp for the day of 10 degrees, and an inside temperature of 70 degrees, isn't that shipping container wall insulated only with 10mil of ceramic insulation going to be cold to the touch? And, if the wall is going to be cold to the touch, isn't it going to absorb heat from the wall like crazy and create a larger heating burden?

I am using MN as an extreme example, but in actuality, I live in East Texas and have the opposite issue most of the year. During the month of August, it will be above 90 degrees from 9am till midnight. If I put my hand on that wall at 8pm, isn't it going to be close to the outside ambient temp, thereby creating additional cooling burden?

I will fully admit that I don't understand the physics of this, but the whole concept of ceramic insulation falls into the "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" category.

Mike
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[DW Pearce]

Mike,

Don't feel bad. Most people are not familiar with Thermodynamics however this brief tutorial may give you a better understanding and also contains a link to a more detailed explantaion http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/thermal/Tutorial.htm

Hope this helps,

Doug

[drphibes]

Yes, there are many different products and brand names out there. I should have clarified beyond the Subject Line that I was refering to Thermosheild Paint and not Supertherm, the subject of other posts. My apologies. I do believe, however, the distributor information is correct for this particular product.

Will be interesting to see if it is as effective as Supertherm, or just another knock off. Thank you for pointing out the distinction between the two.

[slenzen]

What kind of costs are involved w/ ceramic insulation?

[nader]

[sailboatescape]

Whether it is cheaper that batt or blown insulation is NOT not very important in my opinion.

The ceramic is less than 1/4" thick--very important in areas where you wish to design within the 7'-8" interior of the container. On an outside wall it allows you to eliminate framing, drywall and paint.

It may not be cheaper than batt insulation but it is cheaper than these 3 components and you gain some space to boot.

[newcreature]

There are other things to consider like how do you attach electrical devices like switches and recepticles to these walls. And how will the wire be run to and from these devices. I like the corrugated look as much as the next guy, but it certainly creates a ton of extra details. And then there is my total disdain for sheetrock. After building a substantial addition on to my house using 100% conventional techniques, I am dying to try something better, especially on the ceiling.

I keep going back to many of the cool things that are done in commercial and especially retail spaces. If you want to get design detail ideas, visit a nice shopping mall. I think those designers accomplish the impossible...durable cool design that is still inexpensive.

If you are shooting for that utilitarian warehousey look, then container walls with conduit dropped from the ceiling might suffice.