Actual Plans?

[lavardera]

I'll respond to Jim since I've volunteered to be the a--hole regarding diy containers.

Jim, the mods to the containers are very straight forward. The engineering analysis behind them perhaps less so. So yes, you can buy containers in your neighborhood, and find a person to do the metal work, perhaps the engineer willing to do the calcs with sufficient detail to satisfy a skeptical building code official. The cost at that point may be less than buying from TAW, maybe not. But you would have added sweat equity in coordinating it all. FYI the transport is not that much since we are not talking special permits and all ala modular houses.

David and I have spoken about the kind of package solutions that you suggest, whereby customers would be empowered to pick options and make their own solutions. We want to ultimately offer that kind of product, but we have to get there from here. And along the way will be a number of one-of-a-kind proof of concept projects that vet and trouble shoot the system. But if and when they are offered, they will be offered as a product, not as the sale of a design for self execution. You have to realize that TAW brings technical know-how to the table, and along with that comes their desire to sell the product of that know how. Thats the business they are in - selling products. Not selling know-how.

So unless another willing vendor steps up to the plate my strategy is to embrace TAWs interest and run with it. Anybody following our modern prefab movement for the past three years knows how rare a willing manufacturer is. I plan on supporting and fostering that interest. And if that means pointing people to them as a resource, or promoting myself as providing a solution, hang on, because you are going to hear more of it. All of this is because I want to see IBUs become accepted as a legitimate way to build a house. That means I want people to be able to choose it the same way they choose a modular, or SIPS, or a conventionally built house. No special knowledge, no willingness to roll their sleeves up, just the average person on the street that wants a modern house. To get there we have to have a system, and to make that system we have to have a manufacturer with interest enough to invest in creating it. And me, I'll be lucky to cover my time in the interim. Before anybody accuses me of being the money changer in the temple you have to know that there are much better ways for me to make money. Theres a world of mcmansions out there waiting to be designed. I'm here because I love this stuff and I'm passionate about seeing it take hold. I have no problem with a little commerce along the way.
_________________
Gregory La Vardera
architect www.lamidesign.com
modern stock plans www.lamidesign.com/plans
modern workplace www.workalicious.org

[eamesdaedelus]

Thats just about as good a response as I've ever seen Greg.
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designSTUDIO
box 684742
Austin, Tx 78768

512.619.6962

[sailboatescape]

I agree with some of what Jim wrote and a lot of what Greg had to say.

However, as to specialized products for containers, I don't see that happening. excpet perhaps with firms such as David's. It is so easy to adapt current products and the volume of business is not likely to offer anything reasonably priced. You can easily fill in to standard size 6' wide sliding glass doors and could probably special order a 3' panel and a 4' panel and an 8' track to cut down if you really need to have almost all glass across the opening. You can easily choose standard size windows and doors and frames can be fabricated from steel, wood or mounted directly using proper flashings. Outlets can be mounted at floor level using shallow steel boxes or Wire Mold boxes and painted to match, etc.

I think one of the toughest obstacles will be building codes and Greg alluded to this. From a practical standpoint, the containers may be quite strong, but few structural engineers have practical knowledge about them, let alone when you start cutting them. For example, I think you could easily backfill up several feet against one that is partially buried. But they aren't designed with lateral loads in mind and there probably isn't any engineering data out there for that. But the code will usually require an engineers stamp if fill exceeds 3'. So where are you going to find an engineer willing to place his license at risk for a small fee so that you can permit putting one into a hillside? Assume you find one with some knowledge and experience with container housing and is willing, if he isn't licensed in your state his stamp will do you no good.

And I absolutely think the professionals at this site are here because they care about the concept. Their time spent on container issues probably won't end up making them an hourly minimum wage from 30 years ago.

The internet not only has opened up a tremendous forum for the exchange of ideas, but it has given the average DIY a wealth of information from sharing professionals that was not available a few years ago. A site like this not only advances the cause rapidly but is a place where the DIY can learn and those not wanting to do it themselves can find knowledgabe professionals they can perhaps employ for what they wish to do. A win win for everyone.

[eamesdaedelus]

Thats just about as good a response as I've ever seen Sailboat...
_________________
designSTUDIO
box 684742
Austin, Tx 78768

512.619.6962

[drphibes]

All good responses in posts. I would also remind that professional services come with professional fees, usually well worth the cost.

However, consider first what you want from your dwelling and how that relates to containers, SPECIFICALLY. Do you like the Hi-Tech Look, it's industrial feel, or are you simply drawn by cost factors. Or even that it is a bit trendy. All valid motivations for interest, but know where you are coming from and why before consult.

Also, simple and obvious lifestyle requirements/considerations. Sometimes mentioning the most obvious things gets overlooked simply because we thought it too obvious to mention. Do you have a dog? HAve aspirations of a big heavy whirlpool bathtub bathtub. Love containers but need a "feel of space" that is High cielings versuses windows or nothing.

Get your land first. Site considerations account for a lot. The more you do and the more exotic and well-executed, the more it will cost and the more you will have to search and fight to get a keep what it is you really want.

And that is the key: KNow what you really want first. Hell, the notion of a predesigned plan when it comes to a "modular" system is almost an oxymoron. You can build and configure almost anything. Containers as modular system have demonstrated an almost infinite plasticity.

When I got mine, they all had openings and doors in exactly the same spot. Ten military containers, already cut, painted, renforced, the lot; but THE SAME TEMPLATE.

I spent months with scale models of basla wood, with the openings and doors cut out to size, rearrangging and rethinking, and repositioning the individual models in clusters of all possible possibilties. It gave me a chane to see things 3-D, place it in situtu (on my desk anywau), and think about it. How it would play, feel, weather,look, ease of construction, and most of all, Long-term Good design and planning. Not getting any younger here, and once I'm done now adays... I'm done.

Will you love me when I'm a container with a rotted floor?

The biggest part of any preconcieved design plans, simple or small, will always be the client. Be bold, be certain, and keep it simple. It is a chance for your own self-expression and contribution. Do not be bluffed into believing that because someone is credentialed or has done it before,means that your input is inferior to theirs. Respect the professionals, but remember they are a hired hand and are there to serve. It is a partnership, not a doctorial.

Just my two cents. Remember to keep it fun. Pain and misery are warnings of worse things to come warning. If encountered, drop everything and equate your personal pleasure as higher variable. Otherwise, you will be fine. Even without a cheat sheet.

Hell, look at Miss BigHair

[drphibes]

ANdI forgot to mention, and probably the most important thing to keep in mind when conceptualizing your plan and ideas with containers:

THE NEGATIVE SPACE. The sum of the parts depends heavily on the sspace you create "in between". The sense of flow, privacy, oppressiveness or even sheer brillance will be determined most heavily by how you use the negative in organization of ideas, your life, and the translation of that into containers.

Think in 3-D, overlap, flip, and stack, just like with toy building blocks as a kid. And then move your mind through it. I'm not talking about porches here. Real Organic Architecture, "Wrightian", or I should say Usonian principles.

Not just pretty pictures in a book or the realm of genius. But, a playground for all. Didn't he say, " And should be as inspiring as inspiring as any cathederal or canyon>"

I wonder if he ever considered containers or the like? Surely he would have.

Anyway, remeber the inbetween, the Negative space.

[slenzen]

One other consideration is resale value. These are real cool creative ideas but do you plan to live in it forever or are you prepared to possibly get alot less for it than a similar conventional built home. Most home buyers will be unfamiliar w/ container construction.

[drphibes]

Consider the resale of a trick, well-concieved, financially fiesable, piece of truely inspired work. Looking towards the possibility of a weak financial pay-off as a design limitation is rubish. The speculation of what has not happened, should lead us to do what instead? Something less desirable or choke down the familiar? How does this make anything you do more marketable. Indeed, you rob yourself in the long run of the most valuable thing an original thinker can bring to the process. I can't think of a worse or more misleading design premise. Or outlook on life. Bucks follow brillance, usually. Be smart and practicle, and don't be rude. But remember above all, we are all,starving for brillance, crave the new, and secretly long to have our breath taken away, despite the price.

Don't disappoint us. If you do, the future won't pay for that either, albeit all too familiar.

Not a flame. Just remember who we are and just exactly what it is artists and those who create do for the world. It is a gift, don't squander it.

[Alexlebrit]

[eamesdaedelus]

Axel,

As is standard in the design industry, the ULTIMATE responsibility for the cost of a construction project is put on the shoulders of the person preparing the actual contract bids. Unless the project is design-build, this is rarely, if ever the architect. All we have in our capacity to do is give a ball-park estimate and over-view the bidding process making sure the amounts seem fair and equitable. Since construction, by its very nature, is a fluid process dealing with constanty changing market variables, it is even hard for a Contractor to give hard and fast bids. They will rely on estimates from sub-contractors in order to craft the budget the Contract is based on, but by the time the subs-actually come on board and sign their particular contract, it is entirely possible, almost probable, that the commodity prices of their associated materials will have changed. This is the main reason for a healthy contingency fee. And there is really nothing an architect can do about that, which is why I said what I said. Read it carefully though, because I didn't say they could give you "NO IDEA".
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designSTUDIO
box 684742
Austin, Tx 78768

512.619.6962

[sailboatescape]

I agree with and would like to add to the above comment. An architect can use his most recent history with other clients building with similar techniques as his best reference for giving a ballpark price range but that is almost non existant with containers. Containers may give the potential for cost effective housing but I believe it is quite a ways off except for very knowledgable DIY and perhaps in a few locations where a builder gets some experience with them and learns how to best utilize their cost effective attributes. There is still a lot of work to do in implementing some of the great concepts that have come forth and as a few risk takers who are in a position to do so get their feet wet, it will slowly come about.

[drphibes]

Wow, now that is a tall order.

Nevertheless, Mr. Miller's point is well taken. I would put forth that a list of "kits" or something close to it is already being assembled by this forum. Collectively, we have left behind many referals and "how-to" solutions. Consolidation into an easier index might be in order.

To this list and to refer Mr. Miller to some sites that have helped me enormously, and no doubt will help others, I add the following web sites and/or companies. Please excuse that I have yet to learn how to post websites as links. You may have to do a simple gooogle search and go from there. I am learning and will be more skilled soon.

TANDEMLOC is a company that specializies in nothing but the hardware for moving and securing shipping/ISO containers. Their site has lots of photos and downloadable specs for every detail of an ISO container and every bit of hardware you can think of.(including castors, castors with hyralic jacks, leveling posts, and much more). A bit pricey, to buy new, but the knowledge invaluable

I found the education from sites like these taught me what was feasible from an engineering standpoint and most importantly, what this sort of equipment actually looks like and how it is used. In my own case, armed with two-bit tutorial, I hit the the junkyards, surplus houses, and most fruitful, government auction military surplus. Go to:

GOVERNMENTAUCTIONS on the web and you will find slots of surplus hardware for manipulating containers for sale. Sometime faraway, but I have scored many times on this site. Recently, they sold several sets of CDK TRANSPORT DOLLIE, for a couple of hundred dollars. Even with shipping, a hell of a deal. What is a CDK TRANSPORT DOLLY? Go to :
CDK TRANSPORT on the web, I don't recall their parent company, but you can still find a link to their on video of these transport system in action. Sorry, no civilian sales,I already tried. But government auctions and surplus yards are open to all.

Also try GOVERNMENTLIQUIDATIONS or GOVLIQUIDATIONS.

As to prefab/designed jams and headers for cut openings. This one seems a liitle too easy. Determine the size of your opening and take specs for a channel metal jam/header to your local machine shop, auto body welder, ornamental fence guy, whoever, a weld up a couple from stock. 1.5-2" U-channel, right-angle, or sqr-tubular steel or aluminum stock is plenty strong. Simple post and lintel/ butt-end seams level of engineering will suffice. Or get an Oxy/Acetylene welder and some old bed frames and learn to weld the basics yourself. (not that hard, and nothing beats the cost or make as you need it, if you have the basic skills).
Larger u and 90 channel fits and wraps around the cut ends of the metal on the containers. You can weld back into place or do as I did and bolt straight through around the perimeter on 41/2 cnters.(did so because my shells are alum. skin with insulation inbetween and this was how the navy contractor assembled the entire container at every seam).
Gaskets between the faces of flanges (outside,mounting side of channel) I am stll working on and will share as I go. There are some companies that have products for this, I will have to find the paper files. Right now, I am experimenting with very large diameter shrinkwrap tubing laid flat between opposite flanges and then I bolded through. I have miles of the stuff from a surplus yard. 3" diam shrinkwrap tubing is almost as thick as and behaves similiarly to any neopreme or rubber solution I have seen yet. And so far water tight and rubbing or tearing.

More on my sorces and successfull solutions later. My basset calls.

[sacredgardens]

I do not own the 3 acre lot. The lot is up for sale and I thought it would be great to have another like minded person develop the land instead of the normal dozers that come and clear cut the land and build stick houses. Hawaiian Acres on the Big Island in the largest subdivison in the US. Check it out. Living in my garden in paradise. Converted two containers on my property.

Call Island Star Real Estate 966-8255
Just ask them about the property next to Sacred Gardens on Road 8 in Hawaiian Acres. I think the price is listed for $85,000. It has been on the market for about 5 months.

[drphibes]

Touche'

Alex's point on embellishment, as I will call it is well taken and deserves the start of a new thread. (Sorry, I don't know how to do this yet,either.)

But I have the same gut response as his every time I read about what people are actually doing with these containers. 99.9% grab the container as a cost cutting measure or staple of the latest design fashion. And then go running right back to conventional building methods/materials for everything else. Where is the advantage of the container if you turn around and build the whole house the old fashioned, squeeezed in, on and around, what is just a metal box? Why bother? And the expense! How someone could go into a container and the frame in 2x4 stud walls with drywall I will never understand. Good for some maybe, but completely counter-productive. Not to mention losing nearly a foot of interior space possible, given the thickness of two of these walls out of 8 linear feet.

More on this later, but remember, for those who must insulation, there are insulated containers out there, with insulation built-in. And that the military and the vast number of private contractors that supply them have utilized the container for decades, in every concievable application. If you can land one surplus, they most often have the "Rolls-Royce" versions of containers. Comlete with many left over hi-tech, or just just simply hi-cost goodies we commoners seldom know about or could afford.

Surf to websites that supply the military with containers that are loaded with stand alone options. Then, be patient untill a few of the Navy's container's are decomissioned and buy their throw aways. Worth their weight in gold. Military containers are the only typr I have actually used and the only ones I would look to buy at this point. And loaded with good ideas to copy and useable time worn solutions to problems identical to those mentioned throughout the forum. When I have a need or a "wonder how-to" my first reference sorce is always the military and the vast body of it's largely free and accessible info.

Not a Vet. or Military freak here. Just sharing the sorces I have found most usefull. Regardless of who they are.

And Alex, yes, the container as structure, as indeed the solution, and not the thing to cover up is the way to go. But again, puppy is howling.........